Risk, resilience and reward: Richard Abboud, Forum Asset Management 

Richard Abboud:

Too often we set our aspiration to sell our companies to American companies, and that’s just not good enough. That’s not what moves the needle. If one doesn’t want to do it for themselves, we should be doing it for the country. And frankly, I think by moving culture, we can get to the point where Canadians understand that all ethical business is social business because it moves our country forward.

 

Goldy Hyder:

Welcome to Speaking of Business, conversations with innovators, entrepreneurs, and leaders. I’m Goldy Hyder, president and CEO of the Business Council of Canada. In 1996, Richard Abboud started a new job in an office that he described as “a bit of a hovel.” That’s the year he and a friend launched Forum Asset Management, a startup that began with no clients and no revenue. Today I’m sitting in Forum’s office in downtown Toronto, and I would describe it as anything but a hovel. The company is now a multi-billion dollar investor, developer, and asset manager. And we wouldn’t be here if Richard hadn’t taken a risk as an entrepreneur three decades earlier. As the founder and chief executive officer of Forum Asset Management, Richard is passionate about entrepreneurship and inspiring others to take the leap, and I’m really looking forward to drilling down on that with him today. Welcome to the podcast, Richard.

 

Richard Abboud:

Thanks, Goldy. Thanks for having me. Looking forward to this.

 

Goldy Hyder:

So let’s start as to how you kind of ended up here because in some ways entrepreneurship has really shaped your career. How did you know that you wanted to be an entrepreneur and when did you know it?

 

Richard Abboud:

So I’m one of those people that was kind of born this way. It’s a little bit of an odd story. There are lots of child entrepreneur stories. It was inevitable that I would do this. I needed to learn some stuff first, and I did, and then I launched Forum as a brokerage company in ’96. So there was never any doubt in my mind I was doing this. And I know that’s not the case for all entrepreneurs. There’s usually two paths in many cases. In my case, there was really only one path.

 

Goldy Hyder:

Well, you said you knew early and there’s a story about your dad.

 

Richard Abboud:

Oh, yeah.

 

Goldy Hyder:

Yeah. Basically when you were the age of 10, gave you a few bucks. What did you do with it?

 

Richard Abboud:

Well, actually he didn’t give me the bucks because I used to wash people’s cars and cut their grass.

 

Goldy Hyder:

Oh, you earned it. Good for you.

 

Richard Abboud:

So he said, “Son, you need to invest in something.” I said, “All right, Dad, I got a hundred bucks I can risk.” So he said, “Pick something.” So at the time, silver was a really big thing. This was 1980, and I was 14 in 1980. And I said, “You know what? Everyone’s talking about silver. This is fantastic.” I bought silver at 72 bucks. I think it ran up to 80. And then I watched it come down each day, and I remember of course, that sick feeling of it falling every day. And I sold it at $10.50. And what a gift to experience that with small amounts of money. And of course I’m grateful to my dad for encouraging me to do that. And that along with a bunch of other things has informed my approach to investing. That’s why we don’t do Dutch tulips and other things that don’t have clear supply and demand. For those who weren’t around back then, that was the days when the Hunt Brothers cornered the silver market and we were convinced that silver was going to be in everything.

 

Goldy Hyder:

What did you learn from that experience?

 

Richard Abboud:

Just if it doesn’t make sense, it doesn’t make sense. If it’s not real, it’s not real. And people overestimate and underestimate in all cases. So I was also informed by bearing witness to the bankruptcy of two business friends. I was as close to that as possible without being bankrupt.

 

Goldy Hyder:

Financially invested, yeah.

 

Richard Abboud:

And I got to experience that. This would’ve been in the ’90s, and that’s also formed my approach to risk taking and entrepreneurship, and I’m grateful for that experience.

 

Goldy Hyder:

The role that failure has played in the leaders’ lives that I meet with and interview on this podcast, it’s one of the more interesting segments. I mean, this was an early day failure, a big time crash in the price from what I can tell if you went to 80 to 10. Along this journey here, what role has failure in general played in being the kind of leader you’ve become today?

 

Richard Abboud:

Yeah, it’s been absolutely informative and educational. Without it, I’d never be who I am today. I’ve learned through trial and error. I left the University of Ottawa after second year and have learned everything I’ve learned through trial, error, dumb questions as they say. And I think that’s why we are so passionate about encouraging young people to take risk and encouraging Canadians to embrace failure as an opportunity to move the country and the economy forward.

 

Goldy Hyder:

You’re operating solely in Canada.

 

Richard Abboud:

We have American businesses as well. Yeah.

 

Goldy Hyder:

You do. Okay. Do you feel there’s a difference culturally between Canadians and Americans when it comes to risk taking?

 

Richard Abboud:

Absolutely. Absolutely.

 

Goldy Hyder:

What is it?

 

Richard Abboud:

I mean, look, in Canada, we associate failure with shame. In America, they associate failure with incredible knowledge and growth. Simple. A young entrepreneur goes to an investor here. “Have you failed?” “Oh, yes, I have.” “Oh, no, thank you.” In America, it’s great. We don’t have to pay for that experience. So there is a tremendously different mindset. They’re far more aggressive. It’s just bone deep in the culture, which is why we’ve set out with others to launch Shift Canada to change the mindset of Canadians around failure and innovation and entrepreneurship.

 

Goldy Hyder:

Well, let’s talk about that. Tell us first of all, what is Shift Canada?

 

Richard Abboud:

It’s a not-for-profit organization launched by many members of the business community, many of whom include support from other business council members. Our mission is to change Canadian mindset around risk, innovation, and entrepreneurship. And we’re doing that through education initially. So we have a program called Shift Failure, which is being taught in the high schools and junior high schools.

 

Goldy Hyder:

There’s that word.

 

Richard Abboud:

There it is. It’s taught in five modules. And this year, our second year, we’ll reach a hundred thousand, 160,000 Canadians as of the end of this school year, end of June. Our ambition is to grow this to 2 million Canadians, young Canadians a year, where we can have a meaningful effect on the culture. We do have a CEO that’s driving things forward, and we’re looking to build out other initiatives that’ll really make this happen. It’s a time when we found a tremendous amount of appetite for this amongst the business community in making things happen. It feels like we’re relaunching our country in so many ways. And Goldy, you’ve been at the heart of that initiative to relaunch our country. And I think there’s just so much excitement and alignment around the need to do that.

 

Goldy Hyder:

It’s very interesting you put it that way, because we are, as the Prime Minister has referenced many times, at a hinge moment. And while we spend a lot of time thinking about how to manage our friends in the south, the reality is there seems to be a moment here where a lot of it is introspective. What do we want to be? What can we do? How do we take control of our own destiny? And so much of it is about culture. You talked about risk. But in entrepreneurship, the other thing that you kind of get the sense of is that we don’t scale well, we don’t commercialize well.

 

Richard Abboud:

Right.

 

Goldy Hyder:

Why?

 

Richard Abboud:

We lack go-to-market resources in Canada. From what I understand, finding top end go-to-market expertise requires going to Americans. We lack the number of models that are successful, and we lack the ambition. Our ambition at Forum is to build a world-class business that isn’t compared to Canadians, but is compared globally. And I think that’s where Canadians need to set our aspiration. Too often we set our aspiration to sell our companies to American companies, and that’s just not good enough. That’s not what moves the needle. If one doesn’t want to do it for themselves, we should be doing it for the country. And frankly, I think by moving culture, we can get to the point where Canadians understand that all ethical business is social business because it moves our country forward.

 

Goldy Hyder:

Are you hopeful at a time like this?

 

Richard Abboud:

I am. I’m optimistic. I like what our new government is saying. I’d like to see more of it get done. I think it’s challenging. I really like the direction of things, and I think we could go in any direction right now. It really is a blank slate of opportunity. If we lean towards action, tremendous stuff can happen because of how open the slate is from a technology standpoint.

 

Goldy Hyder:

You and many of the people that we interact with are politically attuned.

 

Richard Abboud:

Right.

 

Goldy Hyder:

Tell me the average people in your family that you interact with who aren’t politically attuned all the time, how do they feel about where we find ourselves right now?

 

Richard Abboud:

High ranges actually. We’ve got them from both sides. Some are optimistic and some are still suffering the views of the past. Ranges dramatically, yeah.

 

Goldy Hyder:

And how do we bridge that divide?

 

Richard Abboud:

I’m not sure. I have to say I’d love to hear your views, but I don’t think I’ve ever seen this kind of galvanization around a growth agenda around a forward-looking country, and that excites me. I think we’re now breaking down some of those NIMBY mindsets to understand what we have to do as a group to get there. I think we just need to do more of that.

 

Goldy Hyder:

Now, we’re all shaped by our personal experiences. You grew up in Montreal, the child of immigrant parents. What did you learn from them?

 

Richard Abboud:

Right. Yeah, so much. My parents immigrated from Egypt. My father born in Palestine, my mother of Lebanese descent. They worked hard, they kept their nose down, and they gradually progressed through the ranks of the federal government, eventually my father making his way to upper management. And what I learned was that if you work hard and do the right thing, things will work out. And I also learned a lot about community and community building. They were very focused on their broader community. And community and community building has meant an awful lot to me over the years. So much more on that, but I’ll just leave it.

 

Goldy Hyder:

Well, say more. Tell me more about your experience as an immigrant growing up.

 

Richard Abboud:

Well, I mean, we used to do these, maybe you guys did these too. We used to do these things we called the immigrant barbecues where you get-

 

Goldy Hyder:

Yes. Block parties.

 

Richard Abboud:

Yeah. Yeah. Or like five or six cars lined up, going to some park somewhere to cook on Hibachis and throw Frisbees around.

 

Goldy Hyder:

You got it. The good old days.

 

Richard Abboud:

And it was a blast.

 

Goldy Hyder:

Simple times.

 

Richard Abboud:

Right, right. We didn’t have cottages, we didn’t have other homes. We didn’t go to other countries. We didn’t have money transfer problems because we didn’t have any money. But we were happy. And I learned that happiness is really a function of connection and community. And while means are a byproduct of what we do, they certainly aren’t what makes us happy. And that’s why I’ve often focused on connection and community as we’ve built our lives.

 

Goldy Hyder:

Do you feel that we’ve actually lost our sense of community?

 

Richard Abboud:

So much of it has been lost in so many ways. So where has community come from in the past? Organized religion is something that is declining. Aligning around political parties, well, that’s become too divisive and extremely divisive. Sports creates community, business creates community, different kind of community, and philanthropy creates community. Our neighborhoods create communities. Unfortunately, the neighborhoods you and I live in include people who have multiple homes, so you don’t see folks as often. And what I found is during COVID, community building with neighbors was tremendous. Everyone was there. It was really great. So for us, the philanthropic community is a great place for us to connect, and that’s where we do a lot of our connecting beyond friends.

 

Goldy Hyder:

Yeah, well said. Now, let’s fast-forward to 1996. You start Forum Asset Management when you are 30 years old. And by the way, you did it by leaving a very comfortable job with income to start something where you didn’t know whether you’d make a buck or not. What led you to start the firm?

 

Richard Abboud:

So thick ice and deep water is the way I would describe it, Goldy. So thick ice based on my history of having generated revenue in that industry as a real estate broker at the time. So unless the economy got slaughtered, I felt comfortable that I could continue to do that. And deep water, I could tolerate the risk. I was unmarried at the time and I wasn’t-

 

Goldy Hyder:

That was the other risk you were about to take.

 

Richard Abboud:

Indeed. Indeed.

 

Goldy Hyder:

Maybe she took the risk.

 

Richard Abboud:

I won that trade all day long, all day long.

 

Goldy Hyder:

You and me both, my friend.

 

Richard Abboud:

Yeah. And so I didn’t feel like I was taking the well-being of my family at risk, and so I could tolerate the risk. Those are the two things I’ve always looked for to inform decisions we’ve made here at Forum. Does risk make sense based on your general judgment and can you tolerate the risk?

 

Goldy Hyder:

Right. So tell me, tell the listeners I guess more about Forum itself. What exactly does it do?

 

Richard Abboud:

Sure. Yeah. I mean, we call it Forum 5.0. So it’s the fifth iteration of the business. We’ve had multiple iterations, including public-private partnerships. The pedestrian tunnel at the Island Airport, we built that in partnership with Toronto Ports.

 

Goldy Hyder:

I was just in it.

 

Richard Abboud:

Hopefully it went smoothly.

 

Goldy Hyder:

It went smoothly. I actually ran into the Minister of Foreign Affairs while I was there, so it’s even productive.

 

Richard Abboud:

Even productive. Fantastic. Fantastic. So a number of those things we built over the years. A variety of things from merchant banking to public-private partnerships with a lot of focus on real estate. So Forum 5.0 I launched after taking a midlife pause to be with my daughters who were 10 and 12 at the time. We relaunched it as a balance sheet investor and an asset manager. So we’re an asset manager in private markets, that means everything but public markets, with a focus on real assets, so real estate, infrastructure. One of the exciting things about being a balance sheet investor, along with an asset manager is it gives us an opportunity to eat our own cooking, invest in our own products, and lead with our own capital. So we tend to be the largest investor in each of our funds. That allows us the opportunity to bring people along with us, people, families, institutions, to invest along with us.

 

 

Goldy Hyder:

You mentioned earlier, of course, a real estate career. And we’ve talked about community and we’ve talked about the sort of education and so forth. And you’ve really become focused on purpose-built student housing. You are, I understand, the largest owner and manager with over 10,000 units in the country. Why is this so important to you?

 

Richard Abboud:

Our education is what continues to differentiate us as a country. Having good housing allows a student to focus on their education and build community where they are in a very meaningful way. Last year we acquired from Alignvest $1.7 billion of student housing making us the largest player in the country with 10,000 beds. And we’re also a developer in this space, something we do on balance sheet with 8,000 beds in our development pipeline. There is a gap of another 400,000 beds in the country that we’re working very hard to close.

 

Goldy Hyder:

One of the realities of today, of course, is how AI is now entering the workplace.

 

Richard Abboud:

Sure.

 

Goldy Hyder:

How is it in your workplace? How do you see it impacting your work?

 

Richard Abboud:

Yeah, tremendous opportunity. We pounced on this right away as soon as Chat came out. Not knowing anything about technology, I told the team that in my view, there would be companies in five years that had adopted AI and companies that no longer existed, and that we would not be replaced by AI, but by people who knew how to use AI. We quickly hired a team of AI people. Today, our overall team has five internal people working on AI with a number of tools in development. Our mission is to fully techify ourselves and then take that to support our corporate development to modernize other businesses as we acquire them. I don’t believe I’ve ever seen a more obvious and easy to access entrepreneurial opportunity to create value. Normally, to create enormous amounts of value, you really got to do some stuff.

 

Goldy Hyder:

Heavy lifting.

 

Richard Abboud:

Heavy lifting. This is the easiest stuff I’ve seen.

 

Goldy Hyder:

And fast.

 

Richard Abboud:

Moving at an unbelievable pace. So in a growth company like ours, it’s a tremendous opportunity for our people to elevate themselves to do higher value-added work and more interesting work so we can continue to grow as a team and continue to drive efficiency and innovation through the place.

 

Goldy Hyder:

Is there anxiety about it?

 

Richard Abboud:

Absolutely. I mean, seeing the efficiency part is easy. Seeing what comes after the efficiency from a social standpoint, now that’s a much longer conversation.

 

Goldy Hyder:

But from an employer perspective versus an employee perspective, are employees feeling anxious about do they need me?

 

Richard Abboud:

Yeah, I mean, we hear some of that. I think the best people feel that there’s an opportunity to grow and the best people are leaning into this. We’ve really enabled learning with an AI evangelist that visits with people at their desktop on a regular basis to help them integrate tools.  We have regular lunch and learns. We have an enterprise ChatGPT program and a bunch of other tools that we’re really helping people along to get there.

 

Goldy Hyder:

I’ve often heard it said that people are not going to lose their jobs to AI, they’re going to lose their jobs to someone who knows how to use AI.

 

Richard Abboud:

Yeah, indeed.

 

Goldy Hyder:

I want to come back to a theme that I know you and I really care a lot about, and that is the importance of immigration to the Canadian story, but also to the Canadian economy. It’s fair to say that over the course of the last number of months, even last year or so, we have found ourselves where the generational consensus on immigration is either declining or being questioned. And how do you feel about that? What is it that you want to say about this issue that you care so much about?

 

Richard Abboud:

Look, I think politically, it’s unpopular to speak the truth to the population. So the demographic and economic reality when you layer in where we’re headed from a demographic standpoint is not good. And if we looked at our ability to fund certain things, healthcare, infrastructure, on a pure math basis, if we can’t feed the kids, if we can’t keep the lights on, it’s just so obvious. And of course that’s good Canada, but bad politics. So what I really want is to see a movement created where we’re speaking the truth to each other so we can make the right decisions. In my view, the right kind of immigration is what’s required to get us through this. And radically changing how we deliver infrastructure, which in my mind includes housing, we need to find a way to get through the organizational and cultural malaise that exists within the levels of government that limit the approval of projects, that limit the approval of housing, that affect NIMBYism, so that we understand we’re all in this together. But without speaking the truth to the population, we won’t get there.

 

Goldy Hyder:

Well said. I mean, the theme I hear more is get out of our own way. We can actually do something about it. Now, speaking of doing something about demographics, between us, you and I have five daughters.

 

Richard Abboud:

We do.

 

Goldy Hyder:

So we’ve done our part-

 

Richard Abboud:

We’ve done well.

 

Goldy Hyder:

… to get that ratio up at least two and a half. The question is, what kind of a Canada and what kind of a world are we going to be leaving behind for these kids? How do you feel about where we are and what they’re getting versus what we got?

 

Richard Abboud:

Yeah. I mean, look, so I was born in 1966. In ’67, we delivered the Danforth line. In ’67, the Leafs won the cup. Montreal had the Expo. We were riding high. Apparently my arrival is what led to the decline of our country.

 

Goldy Hyder:

The decline of your Leafs at least.

 

Richard Abboud:

The Leafs at least. After my Habs. And so-

 

Goldy Hyder:

I just want to say I was born in ’67, so maybe it was my fault.

 

Richard Abboud:

Well, there you go. There you go. So clearly we’re leaving them a country that’s far worse. But what I’m optimistic about is because there’s so much in flux right now through technology and through everything else, if we can speak the truth to the population, we can galvanize the nation even further, we can really transform what we’ve got here. Because on a pure landscape basis, this country has it all.

 

Goldy Hyder:

Well, speaking of having it all, you’ve done a lot and we’re grateful for your leadership in our country here, Richard. And it was recognized just last year by the Ontario Chamber of Commerce, which named you the CEO of the Year. Tell me what that meant to you.

 

Richard Abboud:

So much. I think very elevating for me, my family, our team, the company. Extremely grateful. What came up for me and what I shared with the group is if that was possible, if that was possible, anything is possible and young people can really aspire to anything. As a young person, I never would’ve imagined that. I’m extremely grateful for that recognition.

 

Goldy Hyder:

So tell me, what’s your hope for Canada?

 

Richard Abboud:

A bold and ambitious future built on courage and our strengths and a galvanized nation that is further galvanized by speaking the truth to the population.

 

Goldy Hyder:

I like it. Now, the part you may not like is I have some rapid fire questions for you.

 

Richard Abboud:

Pour it on me.

 

Goldy Hyder:

I mean, there’s no right or wrong answer, although I may judge some of your answers.

 

Richard Abboud:

Oh, good. I’m feeling judged already. It’s a cultural thing maybe. I don’t know.

 

Goldy Hyder:

We’re here in downtown Toronto. This is home for you. Tell our listeners, what’s your favorite part of the city?

 

Richard Abboud:

I love the various neighbourhoods. I love the city for its diversity. I’ve done neighborhood crawls with my daughters.

 

Goldy Hyder:

Oh, cool. You got a favorite?

 

Richard Abboud:

Yeah, the water.

 

Goldy Hyder:

Water, yeah.

 

Richard Abboud:

I’m drawn to the water. I cycle by the water. We eat by the water. Yeah.

 

Goldy Hyder:

And what’s your favorite place that you travel to in general?

 

Richard Abboud:

Italy.

 

Goldy Hyder:

Italy.

 

Richard Abboud:

Yeah.

 

Goldy Hyder:

Why?

 

Richard Abboud:

It’s the culture. It’s the people. It’s the language. It’s the food.

 

Goldy Hyder:

The wine?

 

Richard Abboud:

As well. Yes, indeed.

 

Goldy Hyder:

You were holding out on me there. I had to draw that out of you.

 

Richard Abboud:

Yeah.

 

Goldy Hyder:

So what do you do to relax?

 

Richard Abboud:

Yeah. Cottage, cycle, travel, ski, that sort of thing. Be with friends and family.

 

Goldy Hyder:

Favorite food?

 

Richard Abboud:

Like to read.

 

Goldy Hyder:

Oh, good. Well, we’re coming to that one. Favorite food?

 

Richard Abboud:

Favorite food, it’s Italian.

 

Goldy Hyder:

It is Italian.

 

Richard Abboud:

Italian, yeah.

 

Goldy Hyder:

From a guy who’s Lebanese and Palestinian. So many options you had there in between.

 

Richard Abboud:

It’s oddly Italian, yeah. Oddly Italian, yeah.

 

Goldy Hyder:

Favorite, you said you read, so what’s one book that you think everybody should read?

 

Richard Abboud:

Okay. So this is out there. Think and Grow Rich. Think and Grow Rich. It’s written in the ’30s. Maybe you know the book, Goldy. It’s really about positive mindset and visioning. I’ve used a lot of this in my career. It has some extreme ideas in it, but I’d recommend it to any young person. It’s been re-released many, many times. It has some old school ideas, but what doesn’t change over the years is human nature.

 

Goldy Hyder:

Think, you said, Think and Grow Rich? All right.

 

Richard Abboud:

Think and Grow Rich, yeah.

 

Goldy Hyder:

Last question.

 

Richard Abboud:

I’ll send you one.

 

Goldy Hyder:

Thank you. Think-

 

Richard Abboud:

As a young person, you should read it.

 

Goldy Hyder:

Yes, of course. I should read it. Item on a bucket list. So item on your bucket list. Any one.

 

Richard Abboud:

Yeah. Traveling to… You know what? We’ve been to 62 countries now and very grateful for that opportunity. Unique destinations. So Easter Island, the polar bears in Churchill Falls. That’s the kind of stuff that’s coming up next for us. It’s less about a country, but about just a, wow, I can’t believe this. So we’re going to Antarctica in December and hoping to see the penguins and everything else that goes with it. So for us, it’s all about those kind of experiences going forward, along with the usual skiing and Caribbean stuff.

 

Goldy Hyder:

Well, I can’t wait to see those pictures and I can’t-

 

Richard Abboud:

You bet.

 

Goldy Hyder:

And I can’t thank you enough for doing this with us today. I want to end on the note of Think and Grow Rich. It’s not just great advice for our listeners, but frankly it’s great advice for our country. And so thank you for sharing your story with us, Richard. It’s been just a delight to have you here.

 

Richard Abboud:

I’m so grateful. Goldy, thank you. Really enjoyed it.

 

Goldy Hyder:

Richard Abboud is the founder and CEO of Forum Asset Management. If you are new to our Speaking of Business conversations with innovators, leaders, and entrepreneurs, I encourage you to subscribe or follow us so you don’t miss any episodes. Search for Speaking of Business wherever you get your podcasts. Or go to our website at thebusinesscouncil.ca/podcasts. And yes, it is thebusinesscouncil.ca. Speaking of Business is a production of the Business Council of Canada. Thank you to Ryan Clarke for production help with this episode and as always, Will Mcintyre and the good people at Pop Up Podcasting in Ottawa. Until next time, I’m Goldy Hyder. Thanks for joining us.